I continue to receive phone calls regarding regulations for barbecues on balconies. While I have always been against BBQing on apartment and condominium balconies for fear of the spread of fire, the risk of charcoal being blown off a balcony risking those below, the danger of transporting gas cylinders in a building and the nuisance of smoke to one’s neighbours, the City of Cote Saint-Luc does allow BBQs on balconies under certain conditions. Here is an update of the bylaw that has been posted on the CSL website:
Use of barbecues in Côte Saint-Luc
In order to protect the safety of residents, the City of Côte Saint-Luc has placed limits on the use of open-flame barbecues, such as propane barbecues, charcoal barbecues, etc.
The following will help you determine if you can use an open-flame barbecue at your residence.
1. Apartment and condominium rules
Before even reviewing the city rules about the use of open-flame barbecues, you should first learn if your condominium association or landlord allows the use of barbecues on balconies or ground floor area. If it is prohibited by the association or owner, then you cannot use an open-flame barbecue, irrespective of the by-laws of Côte Saint-Luc.
2. Type of balcony
Assuming that there are no prohibitions by your condominium association or apartment building owner, then you should familiarize yourself with Côte Saint-Luc by-laws. By-law 852 amending By-law 626 concerning fire prevention states that the use of a portable open-flame device, such as a barbecue apparatus—which includes a hibachi-type table-top grill fired by charcoal—must be used on a balcony that has a support, floor, wall or any part thereof that is fully fireproof. In general, this means that the balcony must be made of concrete as opposed to wood. However, the only way to determine whether your balcony is fully fireproof is to ask the Montreal fire department to inspect it. You can contact the fire department at 514-280-0868.
3. Distance between gas cylinder and building opening
Assuming that the fire department says that your balcony is fully fireproof, you must also have a balcony large enough to satisfy the rules governing the storage of gas cylinders, such as propane tanks.
The distance between the building opening and the cylinder containing gas is governed by the Canadian Standards Association (CSA), which enacted the Natural Gas and Propane Installation Code and the Propane Storage and Handling Code. These distances, which are incorporated by reference in Côte Saint-Luc By-law 2279, vary and are based upon various factors. These distances only apply to barbecues fuelled by gas.
For example, the Propane Storage and Handling Code states: a cylinder shall be installed outside a building, with the discharge from the cylinder relief valve not less than:
a) 3 feet (1 metre) on a horizontal plane from any building opening when the opening is below the level of the relief valve discharge;
b) 10 feet (3 metres) on a horizontal plane from the air intake of any appliance or air-moving equipment; and
c) 10 feet (3 metre) on a horizontal plane from any source of ignition.
Note: Although these codes regulate gas barbecues and not barbecues fueled by charcoal, Montreal fire inspector Jean-François Duclos recommends that residents read carefully and rigorously apply the recommended distances listed in their charcoal barbecue user manual.
4. Smoke
Assuming that your building allows barbecues, that you have a fully fireproof balcony, and one that is large enough to permit the distances required between the gas cylinder and the building opening, then you can to use your open-flame barbecue—assuming you are not causing a nuisance to your neighbour.
By-law 107 concerning nuisance (i.e., smoke) applies to all barbecues. Just like loud music, smoke from a barbecue could be a nuisance to your neighbours.
In summary, in order to barbecue on a balcony in Cote Saint-Luc, you MUST:
- Ensure your building allows barbecues
- Have a fully FIREPROOF balcony (meaning a balcony made of cement)
- NEVER transport a gas cylinder in an elevator with anyone inside other than yourself
- Maintain a distance of at least 3 feet from the barbecue’s gas cylinder to the balcony door (although the further the safer)
- Ensure that you do not create a nuisance, such as smoke
Failure to comply with these bylaws and national codes can lead to an infraction by Cote Saint-Luc Public Security, Urban Planning or the Montreal Fire Department. For any further information contact the Montreal Fire Department.
Sidney Margles
May 30, 2011 @ 09:20:18
The City of Cote Saint Luc has tried to clarify its by-law dealing with Bar B Cues on balconies, but has not made it clear enough. The term “fully fireproof” is subject to a variety of interpretations, and sending condo and apartment dwellers to the fire department is an unacceptible tactic.
“Fully fireproof” by the strictest of interpretations means that there be no openings in the building wall of the balcony, and therefore prohibits Bar B Cues, no matter what. Where there are windows and glass doors facing the Bar B Cue, this would also mean a prohibition because glass is not “fully fireproof”.
It is not up to the fire department to set the laws, but only to enforce them. Council is responsible for the law, and it should be clear and unambiguous.
So the City of Cote Saint Luc, instead of making a definitive statement, as have many municipalities, including the Town of Mount Royal which PROHIBITS ALL Bar B Cues, has been wishy-washy in an effort to sit on the fence and not offend anyone.
Electors expect their representatives to lead, not to vasiclate.
Will it take an unfortunate incident to occur before CSL councillors take their responsibility?
G.J. Nashen
May 30, 2011 @ 21:54:02
For the record, Councillor Kovac and I have been against the loose interpretation of the BBQ bylaw in the last few years. We have always voted against allowing BBQs on balconies as recommended by our CSL Fire Chief Frank Albert back in the 90s and earlier by Chief Sharkey. The ban was solidly enfoced since we were first elected until the last few years.
The dangers are too great to be worth the risk and the nuissance to inconvenient to neighbours. But, condo and apartment dwellers would rather have their burger and eat it too and do not anticipate the dangers that lurk beneath the grill.
Finally, the Montreal Fire Department and its almost non-existant inspection and prevention team are not nearly as vigilant as our now defunct CSL FD that was actively involved in education and awareness campaigns. The former CSL FD brass was seriously engaged in formulating policy and influencing legislation. Their track record was impressive and result-oriented. Montreal no longer maintains any meaningful relationship between its FD and suburbs and bylaws are easily watered down (pardon the pun) as a result of a bureaucracy far removed from our demerged city.
Sidney Margles
May 30, 2011 @ 22:57:03
I appreciate Councillor Nashen’s and Kovac’s position and know that they have tried in vain to convince other councillors of the potential danger of Bar B Cues on balconies. Perhaps what is needed is a major education campaign, starting with the dissident councillors.
There is enough evidence from elsewhere that even on the balconies of brick buildings with sprinklers, a Bar B Cue adjacent to an open window, a strong gust of wind and flames catching a curtain is not impossible and can be deadly.
As I stated earlier, councillors should lead, not follow the ill-advised opinions of those who think Bar B Cues are a necessity, rather than a danger on high-rise balconies.
Harry Shizgal
May 31, 2011 @ 14:20:28
With all due respect you must maintain a realistic attitude regarding the safety of barbecues. The United States fire departments reported an annual average of 154,700 home fires costs by cooking equipment. Stoves and ovens were responsible for 75%, microwaves caused 5%. Grills, hibachis or barbecues were responsible for only 2%. In addition 7% of the latter occurred within the house.
There are numerous propane barbecues on wooden balconies and terraces attached to townhouses and private homes. I am not aware of significant problems arising from the use of barbecues these homes.
G.J. Nashen
May 31, 2011 @ 22:43:14
BBQs are permitted on the decks of houses and townhouses, whether made of wood or concrete, as they have two exits (one into the house and another to the yard).
Statistics are useful and relevant in a general sense and in weighing potential risk, unless of course, your condo is engulfed in flames as a result of the BBQ flaring up too close to the door when the drapes blow across the flames, setting off your sprinklers and causing you and your neighbours below to suffer water damage, and sending billowing smoke into the units above and focing an evacuation of the building, elderly neighbours now huffing and puffing their way down the staircase as you must never use the elevators during a fire. Those unable to use the stairs will have to wait for the firefighters creating even more anxiety while they wonder if they’ll make it out alive from the burning building. I won’t even comment about the risk to our firefighters, EMS volunteers, Ambulance techs and Public Security agents are exposed to in racing to the “raging inferno”. And never mind the cost to call out all these resources. And the huge inconvenience to your neighbours. Perhaps just a little far fetched in order to make a point, but just ask those 2% who had similar experiences!
Harry Shizgal
Jun 01, 2011 @ 20:23:02
It is obvious that your mind is made up and you do not wish to be confused by the facts. I was astonished to read your response in your blog, that can only be characterized as emotional and irrational. You totally ignore the facts.
These are the facts:
• U.S. fire departments responded to an average of 154,700 home1 structure fires that involved cooking equipment per year. These fires caused an average of 460 civilian fire deaths, 4,850 civilian fire injuries
• The U.S. fire departments responded to an average of 7,700 home fires involving grills, hibachis or barbecues per year, including an average of 3,200 structure fires and 4,500 outside fires. These 7,700 fires caused an annual average of 13 civilian deaths 120 civilian injuries.
• Microwaves are responsible for 5% of home fires caused by cooking equipment.
• Grills, hibachis and barbecues are responsible for 2% of home fires caused by cooking equipment
If one is to follow your logic the City should ban the use of stoves and ovens and especially frying on a stovetop as they were responsible for far more fires than a gas barbecue. I realize that you have problems with statistics, but it is interesting to note “that households that use electric ranges have a higher risk of fires and associated losses than those using gas ranges”.
As a citizen of Côte Saint Luc, I hope that the majority of the city Council will base their decisions on facts and not irrational emotion.
G.J. Nashen
Jun 02, 2011 @ 23:43:54
Harry, No need to be rude and condesending. I respect your position despite disagreeing with you entirely. I’ve often received advice from well-meaning individuals such as yourself who draw conclusions based upon extreme logic.
Example: The argument that we ought to ban cars because people die in car crashes is extreme and unreasonable while legislating the use of seat belts, requiring air bags, limiting speed are all considered balanced and reasonable limitations.
Suggesting a ban on all cooking equipment is a little far-fetched too.
It is Council’s responsibility to legislate for the greater good. In CSL, we try to balance the local government’s reach onto the private domain with the need to be involved for the greater good for reasons of safety and security, peace and order and good government. As much as I agree with an outright ban on balcony BBQs based upon safety and avoiding nuisance to neighbours, the bylaw is based entirely upon the national gas code and building code. There is nothing in the current bylaw that is made in CSL.
Harry Shizgal
Jun 04, 2011 @ 18:28:20
There is a risk involved with any activity such as driving a car, taking an aspirin to using a barbecue. The risk involved can be determined from a careful analysis of past experience. The risk involved is with barbecues is described by the NFPA statistics. The risk involved can be reduced by following the published NFPA guidelines. An activity is usually pursued if the benefits warrant the risk. The benefits are a personal decision. In the case of gas barbecues the risk/benefit ratio clearly favors the use of gas barbecues. The banning of gas barbecues on the condo balconies is clearly not justified.
Sidney Margles
Jun 05, 2011 @ 00:11:35
Unfortunately, Mr. Shizgal defines risk and benefit as being that which may or may not affect himself only. However, when you live in a multi-family building such as a condo, there is also the risk of adversely affecting others, especially neighbours above and below as well as alongside.
In addition, in a community such as ours, with a high level of seniors, some with limited mobility, the risk factor increases and is not necessarily taken into account with statistics.
Mr. Nashen is demonstrating leadership based on his knowledge and experience, not on statistics. The concept of no Bar B Cues on balconies which have only one exit is designed, in part, to minimize the risks which would evolve in the case of an uncontrolled Bar B Cue fire resulting from an accident which can range from a ruptured gas line to a strong gust of wind setting fire to nearby flameable material.
With all due respect, the majority of residents in the majority of high-rise condominium buildings in Cote Saint-Luc respect the “no cooking on balcony” clauses in their condo documents.Trying to reopen the issue is not unlike the separatists of Quebec who wish to pursue their personal interests again and again, resulting only in strained relations with fellow citizens.
Harry Shizgal
Jun 05, 2011 @ 13:41:44
The question of a single door on an apartment building balcony is simply solved by keeping the barbecue at the other end of the balcony and personnel tending the barbecue between it and the single door. Unfortunately, Mr. Margles also has difficulty interpreting simple statistical data and understanding the measurement of risk. Furthermore, the small though potential risk of a barbecue to others is far greater in a row of townhouses with wooden balconies, wood frame construction and the absence of a sprinkler system. The condominium buildings in the city of Côte Saint Luc are concrete structures, with fire resistant concrete balconies and sprinkler systems.
G.J. Nashen
Jun 05, 2011 @ 16:02:14
It seems that only Mr. Shizgal is capable of understanding the complexity of this discussion as he insists on attacking those opposed to his ideas rather than supporting his position and trying to convince others.
So, to the rest of you who are open to respectful dialogue, where I disagree with Mr. Shizgal is that he assumes everyone will obey the existing requirements of distance of BBQs from door openings, transporting of gas cyclinders individually in elevators and in not creating a smoke disturbance to neighbours. In practical terms, not everyone follows the law and the more lax they become, the greater the risk.
We can speak of statistics till we’re blue in the face. But when the smoke is bothering you, when your curtain catches fire and spreads to your condo and smoke and water damage your neighbours’ units, when the wind topples a charcoal BBQ and a burning piece of charcoal falls onto your party down below, you are no longer interested in statistics. You want to know why this was allowed to happen, why it wasn’t prevented, who is responsible?
Therefore, in order to mitigate risk with serious and potentially life-threatening results, we legislate for the greater good. Fortunately, in CSL, most condos already ban BBQs in their condo bylaws.
Bottom line? ABC. Always be careful!
CB
Sep 02, 2011 @ 12:44:08
Life is all about risks — based on the arguments and the existing facts on hand —- Harry Shizgal makes the most valid points. Bottom line is enforcement. Citizens have to be vigilant making sure that codes are followed and safety is practiced.